In this special interview episode of World War S.H.E., hosts Laura Bailey and Angélica Cordero chat with Janice Pumelia, a Brooklyn native and daughter of a World War II veteran, who shares the journey of discovering her father's hidden war experiences, the significant impact these revelations had on her life, and how from it, she found a new family within the Rohna Survivors Memorial Association. Moreover, she elaborates on the association's role in unearthing the silenced tragedies of war and amplifying survivors and casualties' stories. Her accounts include the story of her father’s reunion with his shipmate after decades. Janice also discusses the premiere of Rohna Classified, a documentary shedding light on the covered-up tragedy of the British ship HMT Rohna during World War II. She stresses the importance of preserving and learning from past events, hoping the documentary and her work with the association provide closure and a sense of history to future generations.
This episode was recorded December 7, 2023. Transcript included below.
Links
Learn more about the Rohna Survivors Memorial Association (TRSMA) on their website.
Click these links to get more information about the Rohna Classified documentary and its premiere.
Read the HMT Rohna Memorial article written by Amelia Abney.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Angélica Cordero: Hi, and Welcome to World War S.H.E., a podcast that shares the human experiences and the forgotten aspects of World War II that rocked the world then and echo today. I'm Angélica Cordero, and today I'm really excited to introduce you to another member of our World War S.H.E. team, and Rosie, Laura Bailey. Hey, Laura.
[00:00:22] Laura Bailey: Hello. Hi there. Thank you for having me on.
[00:00:24] Angélica Cordero: I'm so excited that we're getting to actually add more voices to the mix for our audience. I know we already have introduced you to people, but I'm curious to hear how you introduce yourself to everyone.
[00:00:39] Laura Bailey: Well, like you said, my name is Laura Bailey, and I am a native of North Carolina. I've lived here all of my life. I work in a family business. We're a machine and fabrication company that my parents started 45 years ago. Angelica, you've heard me say this before, I like to tell people that we could build a Higgins boats if there was ever a need for those again.
As far as World War II, my grandfather was in the 90th Infantry Division and I did not find out about his war service until after he had passed away when I was 16 years old. I tell a lot of people that I was too focused on myself to focus on him. And so, I have a lot of regrets. Shortly after he passed, I started playing saxophone and jazz band in my high school, started playing Glenn Miller music.
That really got me thinking and to ask questions. Here we are all these years later and I've been a lot of places, done a lot of things, put a lot of his history together. Then I met you and four other incredible women through the Arizona State program where we obtained our World War II studies degrees together. That’s a little about me.
[00:01:39] Angélica Cordero: It probably has come up in conversation before, but I'm realizing now that I don't know that I paid attention to the fact that you play saxophone.
[00:01:47] Laura Bailey: I still do, actually.
[00:01:50] Angélica Cordero: Oh my gosh. Okay, now. I selfishly want you to learn that George Michael song with the saxophone in the beginning. I'm kidding.
[00:01:59] Laura Bailey: I know which one you're talking about. And I used to take my saxophone out on the bus and play it.
[00:02:04] Angélica Cordero: Oh, that's hilarious.
[00:02:04] Laura Bailey: Don't tell my mother.
[00:02:05] Angélica Cordero: Oh, well, I mean, if she listened, she might know now.
All joking aside, I am really very eager to get into today's special episode for our listeners. We'll be talking to Janice Pumelia, the secretary of the ROHNA Survivors Memorial Association and next of kin to one of its survivors. The association recently celebrated the launch of a documentary about the HMT Rohna.
You know, Laura, I have to admit that I don't know much about this particular history.
[00:02:05] Laura Bailey: Well, to be quite honest with you, I had not heard of it myself until a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. I was blown away, really, by the fact that this is such a horrific event in World War II history, honestly, in the United States history. We'll learn about that a little bit more from our guest.
One point I'd like to point out that really, it lands the punch when you're telling the story is, you know, today we're recording this, it's December 7th, 1941. Most Americans know that's the day that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. And the USS Arizona alone lost 1,177 young souls. Well, the Rohna lost just slightly less than that. And that's the story we'll be telling you today.
The Indianapolis, which is also known by many, it was the sinking after a Japanese torpedo hit the ship that delivered the components for the bomb to the island of Tinian, but you know, that loss alone was nearly a thousand.
And so, the Rohna sits right there in the middle as far as total lives loss. But you're average American, I mean, if one in ten people had heard about it I'd be shocked. So, I'm excited and eager to share this history today.
[00:03:47] Angélica Cordero: Well, I know that we have even greater special things happening this episode since you've invited a wonderful guest to actually give us some greater HMT Rohna.
[00:04:00] Laura Bailey: I actually have. Her name is Amelia Abney, and she and I have a special bond. A couple, actually. As I mentioned in my own introduction, my grandfather was in the 90th Infantry Division. And the young lady we're going to be speaking with, Amelia Abney, her great grandfather also served in the 90th Infantry Division.
And she and I have a passion for this history that's unparalleled, and it is so exciting. I am 52 years old, but it is extremely exciting to see the same joy and passion in the eyes of a 17-year-old. I had the good fortune of meeting her at a 90th Infantry Division reunion in San Antonio, Texas. We hit it off.
She has a beautiful family and we've been collaborating together on different projects since. When I found out about the Rohna, I invited her to write a post for the World War II monuments website that I'm managing editor for Arizona State in partnership with the National World War II Museum. If you go to that post you'll see what an incredible writer [Amelia] is and you'll be surprised that she's as young as she is because she has the gift of word in addition to so many other tantalums. Thank you for being with us today.
[00:05:11] Amelia Abney: Hi, Laura. Thank you so much for having me on.
[00:05:14] Angélica Cordero: Hey, we're so excited to have you. So, where do we start with this history of the HMT Rohna?
[00:05:20] Amelia Abney: Well, to be honest, I think you start on November 25th, 1943, when she left Algeria to join the Gibraltar to Suez convoy that would eventually be bombed and lead to her sinking.
[00:05:34] Angélica Cordero: In what little I do know about this history; I think it was mentioned that it was a part of the China-Burma-India campaign. Is that right?
[00:05:47] Amelia Abney: That's correct. She was actually on her way to India as a part of that convoy, and what I think is particularly interesting about the Rohna as a ship is that she was a troop transport. So, she not only had American GIs on board, but she had Indian soldiers, Australian soldiers, British soldiers. It was really a very interesting mix on board.
[00:06:12] Laura Bailey: Tell us about the events that happened that led to the sinking. Take us through that story.
[00:06:18] Amelia Abney: All right, so the convoy left and was headed for India, at least in part. The Rohna was fully loaded with over a thousand American GIs and other soldiers. They were on their way across the Mediterranean, and a fleet of German planes spotted them. What was special about this particular fleet of German planes was that they were armed, at least in part, with Henschel 293 radio-controlled glide bombs, which was one of the first times that those bombs had been put into use.
Late in the afternoon of the 26th, [the convoy] had been at sea for about a day. That convoy was attacked. The first wave [of German planes] didn't do much good, and then the second wave came by. Out of, I believe, more than 40 bombs dropped, the only one that made a direct hit was on the HMT Rohna. So, she was hit. Of course, the convoy sort of carried on, and then more events began to unfold as about 300 men were instantly killed on the impact of the bomb. A fire started erupting throughout the ship. Obviously, parts of it were flooded.
One main issue with the safety of the soldiers was that they had not been thoroughly educated on the use of their life saving equipment. One thing that I think was the biggest factor was the lack of education around their life belts, because unlike we might think, you know, being a boarded boat, you would have a life vest. Most of these GIs had life belts, and these belts were designed that once you got into the water, they would float up under your arms and keep you floating upright and safe in the water. But those men were not told how to properly use those, and they had them tightened around their waist. Which is understandable, you don't really want something flopping around while you're trying to do work on board ship, but they had them tighten around your waist. And if you think about what happens if you get into water with something, that's supposed to float tight around your waist, you're going to end up that doubling in the water with your head underwater.
I don't think there's a good statistic about exactly how many men were lost just because of that. But I think it was a hefty number. In the torrent of the water, the cold, fires rushing, yelling, the ship is sinking, you're going to have a really hard time righting yourself.
There were also very few lifeboats. After the sinking, as the ship began to list, there were probably 2,000 men in the water who didn't have a lot of hope of rescue and didn't have a good option for keeping themselves alive.
[00:09:03] Angélica Cordero: Just for context, what does this belt kind of look?
[00:09:07] Amelia Abney: So, I've actually gotten to see one. The president of the TRSMA, Jason Markowitz, actually has a huge collection of Rohna memorabilia that he took to the previous reunion this June that I was lucky enough to attend. I was actually kind of shocked by how it looks, and these look like, kind of a sad canvas inner tube. They have that typical army kind of green color to them and they're larger than I expected, though I'm about five foot two, so it might not work on me. But, you know, they're designed for GIs, and so it's, it's that green canvas-y material and it looks like a big deflated inner tube.
[00:09:44] Angélica Cordero: So, like a donut. Oh my gosh, okay. That's so interesting. First, I think it's really interesting that they hadn't been trained on how to use it appropriately. And, secondly, that it's basically like a tube you would go rafting down the river, or floating down the river, at least if you're in Texas, in the middle of the summer on.
Am I wrong in thinking that it looks something more like that, or is that pretty close to [it]?
[00:10:13] Amelia Abney: The one I saw was deflated, but it's the same concept. A good bit smaller, of course, since it's supposed to go around you rather than kind of under you. But yeah, you have the right concept there.
[00:10:24] Angélica Cordero: Wow. That's nuts.
[00:10:26] Laura Bailey: And Angelica, it was not uncommon that there was lack of training. It wasn't just specific to the Rohna. I mean, that was a problem throughout the war, the lack of training that these GIs had with the safety devices that were made for them. Sad.
[00:10:45] Angélica Cordero: Now, you mentioned that the bomb that fell on it was new technology. Is that correct?
[00:10:53] Amelia Abney: That is correct. And that's one of the reasons, as I'm sure you'll find out later in the episode, that there was so much secrecy surrounding the sinking. Because it was absolutely experimental technology, and the U. S. government ended up really not wanting the Germans to know exactly how much devastation it caused. I am NOT a bomb historian but I can with fair certainty say that it was something that was absolutely not common and what was not common about it was that it was radio control.
It had, I'm forgetting the word, but you know, you watch a submarine movie and the submarine, uh, shoots a torpedo and it's homing, and it knows exactly where to go. In my head, this is a very crude version of that. And I know that one of the reasons that the other ships in the convoy were not hit was that some of their radio transmissions actually messed with the radio control on the bombs.
[00:11:46] Angélica Cordero: What is it specifically about the HMT Rohna history that you think is incredibly important to preserving its memory?
[00:11:54] Amelia Abney: Part of it I think is closure for the families, and part of it is just honor and respect for those men because how many, you know, monuments and dedicated articles and everything else do you see for, say, the Arizona or the Indianapolis?
And that's so important, but the men of the Rohna were too, and that's something that hasn't happened because of the secrecy surrounding it. I just think that they deserve to be honored for their sacrifices in the same way. And then, to the point of closure for the families, I had the privilege of informing a gentleman here in Athens, Texas what happened to his uncle during World War II.
What happened to his uncle was that he perished on the HMT Rohna. That family had never had any closure. They never really knew what happened, and I think it can still have a powerful effect, even 80 years later, to get some closure and some honor for that lost loved one.
[00:12:51] Laura Bailey: And if I may add to that, Angelica, through school, you and I, we read a lot, we've learned a lot, but the one thing that stood out for me for the Rohna, which just sucked me in really, was the fact that when these young men died on that ship, their parents received telegrams that said, ‘We're sorry to inform you, your son is either missing in action or killed in action.’
No information to follow because they classified it. So, many of these young boys, families, wives, parents never knew where he died, under what circumstances did he suffer, et cetera. So, in addition to experiencing the loss, I cannot wrap my head around living with the fact that I did not know how my son died.
[00:13:42] Amelia Abney: At the reunion in June, they played, I believe it was a PBS documentary that they made back in the 90s that never really took off, but it was pure gold just because of all the family and survivor interviews that were a part of it. I've forgotten most of what was said, but one story that just stood out to me, and I think is just razor edged into my brain, is [of] a woman they had on. She was the widow of someone who had died on the Rohna. He was never declared killed in action. She had sat at home all of those years, thinking that surely, he was just in a POW camp somewhere and that he was going to come home to her. And of course, he never did. I think that really speaks to the point you just made, Laura, of just not knowing. And the heartbreak that can bring.
[00:14:36] Laura Bailey: And to quote your post on the Monuments website, I believe you quoted Charles Osgood. I believe he said, “It's not that we forgot, it was just that we never knew.”
[00:14:48] Amelia Abney: That's correct.
[00:14:49] Laura Bailey: And that's incredibly powerful, and you really can't title this any better than that, in my opinion.
[00:14:56] Amelia Abney: I think it's important to [also] remember that the USS Pioneer, along with several other ships basically turned back around and went to rescue the survivors, and fought for I can't remember how long, you know, pulling men out of the water, whether they were alive or not, trying to document and getting them back to Algeria as quickly as they could.
I don't know how many survivors owe their lives to the really heroic crews of those ships that they deserve to be recognized as well.
[00:15:26] Angélica Cordero: Well, [these are] really interesting stories. I always am fascinated by the fact that there still history of World War II that I have not encountered, that is new to me, that I continue to be introduced to. It is altogether exciting and infuriating because I just wish that I had all the time on the face of the planet to be able to dedicate myself to knowing all the things from this, this history, but it's just, It's so vast, and it's so massive, and it's exciting to be able to actually bring this history before an audience who likely has no idea about any of it.
So, thank you both for giving us a little background, and I'm sure there's more to come as we get into our conversation with Janice Pumelia.
Interview with Janice Pumelia
[00:16:28] Laura Bailey: I'm very excited to have with us today, Janice Pumelia. She and I made acquaintance, maybe about a year, year and a half ago, through a mutual friend who does some writing for Stories Behind the Stars, which is basically the documentation of, the eventual documentation of all of the fallen during World War II.
Janice Pumelia was born and raised in Brooklyn. She still lives there. She's a product of two Italian American parents who lived through the Depression and World War II. She's part of the baby boomer generation and attended Brooklyn College in the early seventies, pursuing coursework in English, history, and even physical education. Shortly before graduating college, she impulsively set her sights on teaching in English and high school and made a career of it. The impulse turned into a calling as you, as she will tell you, she taught English for over 40 years in high school. She has since retired and English education at Brooklyn College for 20 years, and she's heading into her 21st year with no expiration date. That’s a little bit of background on Janice, but the World War II connection for her is her father was a survivor of the HMT Rohna. And as you heard earlier historical introduction you know all about the tragedy, the secrecy, and the fate of that day. And I've asked Janice to join us today to tell us her father's story. Her was Anthony Pumelia.
Janice, when was your first memory of him telling at Thanksgiving?
[00:18:00] Janice Pumelia: Probably when I was pretty young, maybe like 11 or 12 years old. And again, it always kind of fell on Thanksgiving Day, whatever that date was. It was usually at the end of the meal too. This was the day he would say something like, “Well, this was the day I went into the water, and I almost died.” It was just a little strange. He would give us some details. But it was the same kind of vagueness. I don't even think he mentioned the name of the ship at the time. Again, he told it just about every year. We never didn't believe it. We just considered it dad's war story. Rolling ahead to 2002, something happened that changed the whole thing. Here's the quick story.
We were with my brother in Florida. We were visiting him at his home, and my dad was there. I was there. Out of the blue, my father said, “Gee, I wonder what happened to my friend John.”
And it was like, “John who?” “Well, you know, John, who I went over the side with.” He did mention that several times. My brother looked at him and said, “Uh. Well, you know, where was the last place John lived? And what's his last name?” So [my dad] gave his name and [my brother] went right over to his computer and he sat down, and he plugged in ‘John Messina’ and 80 names come up. We all kind of, “Uh, now what do we do?” So now my brother goes, “So, how old was John?” “Oh, you know, about my age. 80, 81.” My brother goes back, puts it in again and even gets sort of a city. I think he said Anaheim, I'm not quite sure. Up pops one John Messina, 80 years old. Up pops an address. Up pops a phone number.
My brother looks at my father. “What do you think? Should I call him?” “Yep. Yep.” My brother never let the grass grow under his feet. Goes over, dials the number, second ring a woman answers. And you know, my brother says, “My name is Lawrence Pumelia. You don't know who I am, but my father, Anthony Pumelia…” Even before he got out like the second sentence, you could hear the woman on the other end screaming, “I know exactly who you are!” and “I know what happened to your father 'cause it happened to my husband!” She's going on and on and on. So, they both kind of take a breath and my brother takes a breath and at this point he's thinking, Is John's still alive?
So, he kind of delicately says, “So, is John there?” And she says, “Yes, he is. He's taking a nap, but I think I can wake him up for this.” John comes to the phone and she's already telling him I got him on the phone.
Oh, by the way, my father's name is Anthony, but his nickname was Babe. Babe. That's because his Italian grandmother with the accent would always say, “The baby needs milk.” No, no. “The babe needs milk. The babe needs a blanket.” You know, she couldn't get the Y. So, Babe. 95% of the people who knew him referred to him as Babe. So, if I use that again…
My father gets on the phone and John gets on the phone and they're all like 12-year-olds just talking back and forth and then excited, crying, laughing. In that conversation, John Messina tells my father, “By the way, what happened to us has come into a whole big thing and there's a reunion.” He said, “I just attended one and there's one coming up in 2003 in Oklahoma City.” Well, that was it. That's all the information I knew. He gave us all the information. We applied [to attend]. We went. I'll never forget the moment that they met.
We got there earlier. We were in a big room with others. Oh, and by the way, the talk had already gone out on the network that John Messina and Anthony Pumelia were going to meet for the first time in 60 years. So, we were in the room first. My father's talking to someone. I'm talking to someone. All of a sudden, I look up at the doorway. Now, I've never met John, but I've seen lots of pictures of him. But the minute I looked at this 80-year-old man, I saw his eyes, and they were deep blue, and I said, “That's him.” He came into the room. My father turned around. The two of them ran to each other, embraced, kissed; the room, broke out in applause. It was such an amazing moment. There are several of those pictures.
That's the story of how I really learned all about this, what really happened, about the association. I was there that year with him and the next year, which was the great year because it was the dedication of the World War II Memorial in Washington DC. […] It was a very, very big reunion and a very, very big commemorative. I attended two reunions with my dad, and he passed away a few months later. I didn't go for eight years.
It was a little hard to go without him, but I kept in touch with the association. I knew there was a bond there. And in 2012 I came back. I became a board member. They looked at you and said, “Janice, you're the secretary.” And I went, “What? Huh? Okay.” I had no say in the matter.
It's like, as a matter of fact, I was just talking to our president, Jason, a couple of weeks ago and I said, “You know, you guys didn't give me a chance to like say yes or no?”
He said, “You turned your back for five minutes. That was [it] and we said, ‘Uup, you're in. You know?” He said, “You had no choice.” It was very funny.
That's kind of the story of what happened to my dad, how I found out about this association, survivors casualties, and here I am.
[00:24:02] Angélica Cordero: Janice, could you explain to us or, I guess, introduce us to the association?
[00:24:08] Janice Pumelia: TRSMA, the Rohna Survivors Memorial Association was started in 1999 by John Fevit and many other survivors who met on a yearly basis and continue to meet. Obviously, there are only, as I mentioned, three survivors left. It is now carried on by the families and friends of those survivors and the casualties, as I said, meets yearly in, a different city to honor all of those men who were lost or survived on that day in 1943.
[00:24:43] Laura Bailey: If you don't mind, if we could back up just a little bit. Some of the research that I've done on the Rohna, the British ship that we were using, the allies were using, it was in deplorable condition. Did your father mention anything along those lines?
[00:24:56] Janice Pumelia: Oh, yes, absolutely. And as a matter of fact, if you look at the interviews and the two books that Michael Walsh has written almost to a man, they've talked about the hideous, horrible condition of the boat. The food they didn't have. The crowded conditions. [The life boats] painted over. I mean, that's why they couldn't get the lifeboats down because they just slop the paint over it. That when you needed to get it down, it was stuck.
My father tells a story about how he was watching an officer with an ax, a hatchet trying to get it down. And my father's going, “Stop, stop, stop. Don't do that.” And the officer looks at him, he pulls his gun out. I told my father, I mean, what a crazy time to pull a gun. He said, “Wow. Wow. What? Like, no, no, no, no, no. You don't understand what you're doing.” He looked up and the boat was going to literally fall on someone and kill them in the position that it was. Those boats that made it out, and I think there were maybe a half dozen, many of them fell on the men in the water and killed them.
[00:26:06] Laura Bailey: Oh my goodness.
[00:26:08] Janice Pumelia: That's how. This was so badly put together. Yeah.
[00:26:12] Laura Bailey: Once your father was rescued from the water, how did he the rest of the war?
[00:26:18] Janice Pumelia: Well, they had some R and R for a few weeks. This was the China, Burma, India group that was in this convoy of 26 ships. The minute they kind of saw that the guys got all together, he was shipped out to China and India, and he spent the majority of his time as a B-25 mechanic. And he also spent a lot of time flying those missions for supplies over the hump. So he talked about that a lot. Well, that was it. So, he was in China and he was India.
[00:26:53] Laura Bailey: You're very fortunate that he shared because so many of that generation left it behind.
[00:27:02] Angélica Cordero: I was just gonna ask if you could explain what over the hump means?
[00:10:34] Janice Pumelia: Oh, oh, okay. Well, there's [these] very, very, very big mountains between China and Burma. There was this whole thing; they had to build route. And dig out a route, and eventually did, but it was very, very difficult to fly to get from China to Burma. So, the hump referred to the mountains that they had to fly over. So, it was like, “Oh, we're going out. We'll fly in the hump.” That's simply what it means. Going over those mountains.
[00:27:35] Laura Bailey: And they were the Himalayan Mountains.
[00:27:38] Janice Pumelia: Yes, those were the Himalayans and they're quite high.
[00:27:41] Laura Bailey: You had mentioned when you and I have spoken before, Janice, that your life changed when you heard the real story. What do you mean by that exactly? How did it change?
[00:27:50] Janice Pumelia: Well, as I mentioned in the beginning, it was dad's war story and I thought everybody who had a dad in World War II had some sort of war story. When I realized that this was the largest loss of life disaster at sea, over 1000 men more than Pearl Harbor, simply because Pearl Harbor lost men in the harbor. This was at sea. and that it was classified, that it was covered up.
We don't really dwell on, “Oh, it was covered up by the government.” Yeah, it wasn't a good thing. When eventually you get to see the Rohna Classified documentary, I think you'll both agree that it's very, even-handed that this was war. These things happen. Was it classified because we wanted it hush hush? Did we want not want the Germans to know? Did the British and the American purposely do this? Did someone slip? You know, it could have been a million things.
So, I think the fact that this was dad's war story, it was a lot bigger than. I imagined and that there was a group of survivors who started this organization to bring all of those men together who may be like my father like, “Well, did this really happen to me?”
By the way, my father had two nervous breakdowns. One of the things that happened after they got back and they were kind of on R and R for a few weeks. They psychiatrist met with them and, you know, this is the early days of psychiatry and psychiatrist said to all of the men, “You know, you're okay now. You're pretty good. But we are thinking that, you know, maybe a month from now, maybe a year from now, maybe, you know, several years from now, this will come back to haunt you and particularly for the survivor's guilt.”
So, at age late seventies, early eighties, my father had a breakdown that he was at the point that he couldn't even speak anymore. He became the father that I knew who could make decisions and laugh and just converse with everybody so comfortably. Everything started to bother him. I'll tell you the quick story where I knew that something was really wrong with my dad.
I was married and I would go over the house, and I would have a cup of coffee with them. I loved to cook with my father. So, he said to me, “Janice, come on over. We're going over so-and-so's house tomorrow. Let's make a cheesecake together.” I said, “Oh, sure. That's fun.” So, we make the cheesecake. I open the oven, and if either of you have ever made a cheesecake, 80% of the time there’s a crack will come into the cheesecake. Big deal. Alright.
I opened that oven door and he said, “Janice, oh my God, there's a crack in the cheesecake. What are we gonna do? What are we…?” I looked at my father, I was like, “We'll put some blueberries in there!” I call that the crack in the cheesecake moment where I knew something was wrong and he was having that breakdown and he continued to say things like that totally out of character. Worry about everything. Jabber, loose sleep, pace, to the point that we had to sign him into an institution first time and then a few years later kind of cropped up again.
So, was that survivor's guilt? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know, but you know what? My father went through heart disease and went through quadruple bypass, and my sister and I said at one point after he had those two nervous breakdowns, being around him and supporting him and going through quadruple bypass was nothing compared to watching him deteriorate mentally. That was horrible because it wasn't your father anymore. It was somebody else.
[00:31:58] Angélica Cordero: I can't even imagine what that was like going through. I'm curious. Were these moments, did they happen prior to you discovering the real history?
[00:32:13] Janice Pumelia: No, no. This was, this was years later. This was years later. Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me get my timeline right.
Uh, no, it was actually…yeah, no. You know what? Wow. You know what? I have to think about that. I can't answer you right now because that was a good question. So, I have to kind of parse through a decade. And so I can't answer that question right now.
[00:32:41] Laura Bailey: You know, along those same lines, Janice, was that before or after he rediscovered Mr. Messina?
[00:32:48] Janice Pumelia: Okay. You know what, I'm thinking that the breakdowns… Oh no, the breakdowns came earlier and. In 2002 we discovered John, so Oh yeah. It had to be. because my father died in 2004. Yes, it was before. It was definitely before we discovered John Messina. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. So that's interesting.
[00:33:14] Laura Bailey: Yeah. I'm just curious, did John Messina coming back into his life help him with closure, with putting to bed finally that tragedy?
[00:33:24] Janice Pumelia: I think so. I think so. Well, okay, so we were at the 2004 reunion and big thing to all of the servicemen. The event was over, and we were walking out. I may have been talking to my brother and my husband was walking ahead with my father, you know, a few feet. And I could see they were kind of deep in conversation.
My husband and my father had a pretty good relationship. You know, of course no one was too good for his daughter, but you know, he let him marry me. So anyway, I asked my husband a couple hours later, I said, “Gee, what were you and dad talking about?” He said, “Well, he said something pretty amazing to me.”
I said, “What was it?” He said, “As soon as we started on that walk, he said, ‘Well, it's okay. It all okay now. Everything's fine.’” and Robert looked at him and said, “What do you mean by that?” [My father] goes, “If I go now, everything will be okay.”
[00:34:22] Laura Bailey: Wow.
[00:34:23] Janice Pumelia: That was the closure, and he died four months later.
[00:34:27] Laura Bailey: Wow.
[00:34:27] Janice Pumelia: Now I think two things precipitated that. First of all, I think he did have closure with meeting John and the dedication of the World War II Memorial. But my sister, my baby sister had breast cancer. Father can't live with that. And at one point I was talking to my father one day and I don't know how it came up. I said, “You know, dad, we're always here. We're always gonna take care of you.” And he turned to me and said, “Janice,” he said, “If I'm here, you can't take care of your sister.” And I was like, oh gosh.
And you know what? My father willed his death because he lived on his own. My brother would visit him on the weekends and my brother is ringing, ringing, ringing his phone. He says, called me. He goes, “Well, you know, I saw him the other day.” He goes over there on a Sunday. My father is gone and in bed. Nothing. Just, that was it. He died in his sleep and to this day I feel that he willed that because he really meant it when he said, “If I'm here and you have to take care of me, you can't take care of your sister.” So, yeah. That was really something.
[00:35:38] Laura Bailey: There's a lot of intense emotion woven through that time of your life.
[00:35:49] Angélica Cordero: Janice, I'm curious, you know, in your engagements with other family members of the Rohna Survivors Memorial Association, have you found similar, I guess, camaraderie with them as a child of a survivor in moments like what you're describing, do others have moments like that themselves?
[00:36:09] Janice Pumelia: Oh, yeah, first of all, you have no idea how this is my family. I have met people and, how you've developed a family with Laura and the other women in a year's time. Now, my family is over 20 years. So, this is pretty amazing. You know, my closest friends live in California, the VP Deb CH Sanchez.
I could be on the phone with her three times a day sometimes. We all have things that we talk about, things that our dads did and said. There's such a connection. You have no idea. I'm just throwing a number out there. I would say like half of the men didn't talk at all about it, and the other half sort of talked about it a little bit and sort of vaguely like my father did to us. By the way, this is a good statistic for you. Those in the association who have bonded and are doing the most are the daughters. Not the sons. The daughters are the glue of this association. I mean, that's not to say that Jason Markowitz, who's our VP and who's a colonel in the Air Force and whose grandfather who was a survivor of the Rohna isn't intensely our buddy and our family, but the women are the doers.
[00:37:30] Laura Bailey: I believe that I honestly do. Yeah. Well, Janice, you referenced the documentary, so if you could just take us through the process of when that first started to be a part of conversation.
[00:37:44] Janice Pumelia: Sure. This was just a week ago, the 80th anniversary of the sinking, uh, 1943. 2023, 80 years. Five years ago at the 75th anniversary, a man named Jack Ballo showed up because his wife discovered that her great-Uncle, Joseph Pisinski, was a casualty of the Rohna. Now, how did this come about? Well, Jack and Barbara Ballo inherited Barbara Ballo's family old house. And so, you know, old houses have lots of stuff that's sitting there for years. They go up to the attic. They open the steamer. I have so many steamer truck stories, you have no idea. They open the steamer trunk and there are 23 letters written from Joseph to his mom before he died on the Rohna. So Jack Ballo, who's a filmmaker, married to Barbara Ballo. As a matter of fact, I just found out recently that Barbara turned to Jack and said, “You could make a film out of this.” So, of course the whole idea of these letters and what's the Rohna and all that got the better of him.
So, he was at that 75th anniversary, found Michael Walsh. What better person, because Michael Walsh has interviewed over 40 survivors. He's the researcher. He's got all the stories. So, he hooks up with him, a few other people, and for the last five years, they have been to the National Archives, to the, what is that? The Army place where all the research documents are, matter of fact, there was a fire there in 1973 that wiped out a lot of the documents. Anyway, they've been back and forth to every possible place they could research these documents to find out the most about the casualties.
The primary thing that he wanted to do and that he felt was, “Yes, this was classified, and this was a terrible thing,” but the first thought in his head was, “What about the mother and father? What about the wife? What about the girlfriend? What about all of those men and women who got that telegram that said MIA or KIA also. And they never had any information other than that?” So, that was his first thought is to talk about the families of the casualty and of course, kind of link that in with the classified nature.
There's a lot of background information on the actual guided missile and the scientists that we grabbed from Germany and brought here to the United States to do the research. Hans Doctorman, who actually was the one who dropped that guided missile and hit the Rohna, well, his grandson has been part of the association for over 20 years. I met him for the first time two weeks ago. Matter of fact, Sean Doctorman was asked by his grandfather when he was still alive, he said he had a lot of guilt. He said, “Can you like apologize to these men for me?” And [Sean] did that one year and all the men looked at him and said, “It was war. You have nothing to apologize for.”
So, this is interesting, the different people from various parts of everything that happened to the Rohna. And we had two women from Scotland come two weeks ago, spend the weekend with us, whose father survived. We have another British connection, two Canadian women. We had families from all of the United States, casualty survivors, Canada and the UK. I think that's pretty darn good for something that's 80 years old.
[00:41:30] Laura Bailey: Absolutely, absolutely. You mentioned, Mr. Doctorman coming this past week. I read in an article this weekend that his grandfather lived every day of his life afraid that someone was gonna come and kill him for that. So, just the magnitude of the weight that he carried in addition. The survivors and the families left behind that never knew anything. It's hard to wrap your head around it.
[00:41:54] Angélica Cordero: You know what's really cool about that, and I don't mean to make light of it by calling it cool. But there was something really cool or interesting about this idea that this is one German, right? And just to think that he felt that immense amount of guilt and how many more of them also had their own experiences that they may have spent the rest of their lives also harboring the same amount of guilt, if not more.
[00:42:23] Janice Pumelia: Yeah. Well, I talked about the survivor's guilt. I mean, you know, my father with two nervous breakdowns. Was it survivor's guilt? I don't know. Some stories… the men, …the daughters talking about my father was an alcoholic. He never recovered from that. You know, alcohol, alcoholism, drug addiction. I mean, I don't have any statistics on it, but I've heard some cases.
[00:42:48] Laura Bailey: You know, one thing that since Angelica and I have come to know each other, and as we walk through our graduate program together, I came to the realization that the more I learned, the less I knew and that I needed to become content with that because the more questions I ask only created more, and most of which I don't think will ever be answered.
And I think that's true for the generation that lived it, that actually served it abroad and served it at home. There's a lot of missing pieces to this global puzzle that I don't think will ever be found or placed, if that makes sense.
[00:43:23] Janice Pumelia: Yeah, because it's funny you say that because after the documentary and, you know, there was a Q & A and [it] was fantastic. We wanted it to be about 45 minutes and people kept raising their hands and we finally had to say, “Listen, there's food outside. You know, you have to go out and eat and we’re gonna be around all night. Many of [us will] be around tomorrow. You can ask any questions that you want.” Some things came up and there were some little corrections that needed to be made in the film, in the credits.
A group discussion ensued with the board members about a week later, like, “Hey, was so-and-so's father was rescued by this ship or that ship.” So, here we are, 80 years later, still asking the question, “Where was so-and-So?” and “Where did so-and-So go?” Yeah. So, Laura, you’re absolutely right. We're not going to be able to answer those.
I remember my father and John talking. I think it was the Oklahoma City reunion. And my father said, “I had my jacket on, and John said, no, you didn't. And my father said, you, I had my jacket on. And John said, “You didn't.” As a matter of fact, I have my father's razor that he probably got when he entered the army in 43, that he said was in his pocket when he jumped over the side. Now, why was the razor in the pocket? I don't know. But John insisted he didn't even have that jacket on. And someone said it was snowing. And the minute I heard that must have been the all the explosion and bomb blasts that looked like snow to someone that was in the water. I mean, that's the only thing I could make of
[00:45:00] Laura Bailey: Yeah. Wow. Well, Janice, how many survivors remain?
[00:45:03] Janice Pumelia: Three, that we know of. Herman Vinnet is in Florida with Robert Firstman and Saul Gurman is in Massachusetts. So those are the three that we know of. And very nicely, two out of three of the family members were there. We were well represented.
They all turned 100th this year. They all had parties. They all sent us clips of their birthday parties. We showed it at the reunion, and I was crying. It was like, “Oh no, look at these guys.” While we were watching the documentary, he streamed it to the three of them. I thought that was tremendous. So, the three survivors got to see the documentary.
[00:45:44] Angélica Cordero: Have you guys heard from them about what they thought about the documentary?
[00:45:49] Janice Pumelia: You know, I don't know. I'm sure Jack Ballo has, but Jack hasn't shared that with us yet. I'm sure like at our next meeting we'll hear about it. I'm eager to hear that too. That’s a great question, Angelica. I'll try to answer that one in the future sometime.
A few days after, we were all kind of floating after the whole weekend saying, “Wow, did this really happen? Was this this great?” Someone jumped into the group conversation and say, “Hey, listen, let's just talk about all this.” And last weekend we just jabbered for about an hour and a half about everything that happened because I think it was a lot bigger than any of us could have imagined. And to have over 30 casualty families, and I don't even know how many Survivor families, 450 people show up, pack this theater, over a hundred people on Sunday in the Memorial Park commemorating the men who lost that day, that was truly amazing. So, nah, beyond, beyond what we thought.
[00:30:24] Laura Bailey: Well, Janice, what do you think your father would've thought of the premiere?
[00:30:28] Janice Pumelia: Well, I had said this before, and my husband’s always said this. He goes, “You know, your dad is like, okay, I'm glad I met John. I'm glad I got to go to two reunions, but okay, that's enough.” But I think if he was still around and he knew about this documentary and came with us two weekends ago, he would've said, “You know, that's, that's pretty good. Someone finally told the world what happened to us.” So, yeah and I think he would be proud that I became a part of this.
[00:47:31] Laura Bailey: I am sure of that. Absolutely. As I've met veterans over the years, it's very important that the history moves forward for them.
You know, I think that's some of their greatest fears that that history will die with them. So, I applaud you for the work that you've done. you.
You had shared, when I spoke to you last weekend after the premiere, about a young lady telling you her thoughts about how it gave her family the closure. I would like for you to give the punchline, if you know, which lady I'm talking about, what she said it meant to her.
[00:48:03] Janice Pumelia: Yeah. She felt that this was the funeral he never got. I thought that was pretty amazing. You know, I just never thought of it that way, but it was, it really was a funeral. I was particularly moved because at the Memorial Park we read the names of the casualties and we asked the families to stand up. Now some families had two or three people. One family, I lost count. I think it was nine or 10, right down to little ones. The whole family, Children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren stood up. That was amazing.
[00:48:41] Laura Bailey: Now that the documentary has been premiered and it appears that so many are receiving the closure that they've not only sought for themselves, but they're seeking on behalf of their family that's since passed on, what's next for the association and for you and those that are carrying the torch?
[00:49:00] Janice Pumelia: Well, it's interesting. It's kind of twofold. When we had the meeting with Jack Ballow last week, he goes, “This is just the beginning.” He said we were basically at a private screening. And by the way, Veterans Day was the week before, and this town [where the premiere was hosted] honors veterans whenever it can. It does a Memorial Day parade. It does a Veterans Day parade. So, he went to the Veterans Day parade in this same town and he invited all the veterans free of charge to come in and watch the film. So, they saw it first. What Jack has in mind, and he had a “Pre-order your Rohna Classified DVD, but it's probably going to come out, I think, next Memorial Day. It's probably gonna be six months. And the other thing that he wants to do, and this is important to him, is he'd like to have it streamed. He actually said New Year's Day, you know, he wants it soon. So I think he's, he got home, maybe slept for 24 hours and then said to his wife, “Come on! We gotta get back to work!” because now he had to find a streaming network to get this out so that it could be kind of a pay-per-view for anyone who missed it because there were lots of people who didn't come to this because they couldn't come. They'll get to see the streaming of it and then a whole bunch of other people can get the DVD eventually.
What I also heard said by people who came there. And by the way, we had rooms filled with memorabilia that families brought. It was amazing. I was standing at the doorway, and someone came in, I'd never met him. He goes, “Wow, I didn't know there were all these reunions.” I have a feeling that come June, when we're in Columbus, Georgia, because Columbus, Georgia is the nearest city with hotels, et cetera, nearest to Fort Mitchell, where the monument is. I have a feeling that our attendance at reunions is going to go up both on the casualty and the survivor side.
And as a matter of fact, I'll quote the words of our last Survivor who was on the board, Gus Gki (sp?). We were at a board meeting and, of course, Jason Markowitz was trying to make a five year plan and a 10 year plan. You know, seeing the association into the future. And I'll never forget it because I was very close to them. Gus, who could barely hear and Ruth, one of the wives of the survivors. Ruth leans into Gus and says, “Nah, I'm not voting on that five and 10 year plan.” They were now 94 years old, you know. So, and then Gus said, “When I'm gone, the association will not be.” I'd love to say to Gus, and if you could hear me now, Gus, you were wrong. And he would say, “Thank you, Janice. I'm glad I was.”
[00:35:23] Laura Bailey: One thing that always interests me and it does, a lot of people are the home front and the tangibles, the heirlooms, et cetera. Would you share with our audience your accessory that you wore to the premiere, please?
[00:35:40] Janice Pumelia: Oh. I wore a shawl that my father sent my mother from India. Now, he sent her a few things. 80 years later, I still have the shawl in perfect condition. A square, maybe about, three feet by three feet, silk tased with a rendition of the Taj Mahal.
Now, I didn't know this existed until about 15 years ago. My cousin inherited my grandmother's house, and of course there's the steamer trunk again. They're clearing out the estate, the house, she opens the steamer trunk and in it is towels and sheets and linens, and in the middle out pops the shawl she holds it up. There's not a hole. There's not a stain. There's nothing. It is in perfect condition other than being slightly wrinkled. And I think it survived because it was so in the middle. It was so packed in that steamer trunk that nothing got out. Nothing got added.
All right. So, I wore that shawl. I figure 80-year-old shawl on the 80th anniversary. It was perfect. And by the way, I don't normally wear black, but I did this time. I wear red. That's my color. So, I had to wear black for this because this beautiful silk shawl was like this vibrant gold yellow, and it was the only way to kind of show it off. I got a lot of people hearing the story and coming over to me. So, I was really proud to wear that.
[00:37:16] Laura Bailey: I am certain, and you know, the, the vision I have is, you know, that was a gift from your dad to your mom. And they weren't with you in physically, but they were wrapped around you. Do. You know? And I,
[00:37:27] Janice Pumelia: Oh, oh, I, love the metaphor.
[00:37:32] Angelica Cordero: Janice, one more question, if you don't mind. What would you want the listeners that are learning the history of the Rohna, learning your family history, what would you want them to take forward from your experience and from your work with the association?
[00:37:49] Janice Pumelia: The past is not dead. The past is alive. The past is a way for you to learn how to move forward. And I always say like, if you don't learn the mistakes, then how can we have a better future? You know, unfortunately, I've only met a few youngsters; and Laura, you and I know one very well…
[00:38:08] Laura Bailey: Yes, we do.
[00:38:09] Janice Pumelia: …17-year-old Amelia Abney, and I know a young man, 21 years old, living in New Jersey, who's 21 going on 40 and very interested in World War II; that they have a lot to learn from the past. Not only about how to lead a better future, but they should know things that went on that how, how do I put it…that you are here because that happened and a lot of, I'd say most, kids disconnect on that and they need to see that and make that connection. I think that's what I would say.
[00:38:43] Angelica Cordero: Well, I think that's an amazing way to end thank you so much for that wonderful and beautiful manifesto. That's absolutely everything I think that Laura and I and the ladies constantly talk about. It's wonderful.
[00:39:02] Janice Pumelia: Thank you for inviting me. I was very honored to be part of this. It's funny, when doing this interview, I begin to see about myself how important it is to me and how interested I am in it. Can I just relate one quick thing at the end?
We were in, we were in Vegas and my father was gone. Oh, this was the first year that I came back. Michael Walsh did some interviews with survivors, but he said for the first time he goes, “I want to interview. Family members. So, Janice, you're a perfect candidate. Would you mind doing an interview?” I said, “No.” We went to a studio. I had not read my father's interview from his book in over five years. Somehow, I said to myself, and I had the book with me, I said, “Maybe I just need to reread dad's interview.” And I read it literally minutes before [Michael Walsh] interviewed me. Michael Walsh asked me a series of questions. I cannot really remember what they were, but I wound up in one answer saying, “I am my father's daughter.” And I started to cry as I am right now.
It's funny 'cause I had some relatives there and they understood. Very well. So, reading that interview just minutes before just kind of gave a rush and brought it all back to me. That was a special moment. And I did not know I was going to break down and cry, but that was a good thing.
[00:40:33] Laura Bailey: I am very grateful, as I'm sure our listeners are, the fact that you would share your heart and the gift of your past, the darkness, the wonderful times. I truly am grateful and thank you very much.
[00:40:46] Janice Pumelia: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
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